It is ironic how we have made distrust of personal experience the rule rather than the exception, in an attempt to give dominion to professional biases and impersonal conjecture over outcomes that really happened. This appears to be the modus operandi of critics of MMS. It’s not limited to MMS though… it applies to virtually any method that can be shown to mitigate many of the consequences of current social and medical thinking. Personal experience, a priceless guide, has been dubbed “anecdotal,” is routinely discounted or dismissed if it differs from the norm. The maverick approach is not to be believed unless a group of elite “peers” have studied the subject and given it their blessing. Furthermore, a publication… another elite one, must decide to publish the information.
Such thinking has brought us to where we are; at a crossroad.
All of these learned individuals are beholding to someone — personal or impersonal — who facilitates their ability to buy groceries, pay their rent, mortgages, auto loans, medical bills, put their children through school, and support their personal quirks. All are servants of the Money god, to which intelligence, honor, compassion, and humanity often takes a back seat to budget limitations, supply issues, and political expediency. Under these circumstances, objectivity is the first casualty. Truth may then be seen through a biased lens… that is, if it is ever seen at all.
This form of impersonal logic often shows itself in conversations with MMS detractors. The amazing results of tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people are dismissed by apparently intelligent critics who have not exercised the courage to look into it on their own, forming a knowledge-based opinion, or respect the people who have. They hide behind initials and credentials that imply they (or their peers) know what they’re talking about, even when evidence of such knowledge is nowhere to be found.
Instead of being joyful at the specter of actually finding viable answers (including MMS or others) – that may be right under our noses to a wide spectrum of ailments that have robbed so many of their health, vitality, financial security, and their lives — we hear skepticism, consternation, personal judgment, misinformation, and disbelief. Furthermore we see disinterest in confirming the positive claims. The only interest the agencies and the critics have shown is in dissuading more use (even with misinformation), and going after sellers of the product.
Yet, the positive buzz continues.
—–
I had a wonderful conversation yesterday, via Skype, with Andreas Ludwig Kalcker. He is a German researcher who, after using MMS to mitigate a medical condition of his own, began researching it himself, has personally introduced it to various parts of Africa, and envisions producing a documentary series in which MMS is looked at in the context to a greater look at our current practices of, and attitudes toward health care.
I’m pleased to be invited to be part of this undertaking.
Andreas also took umbrage to the Gabriela Segura slam of MMS, as I did. I got a copy of it the other day, and will share here. While fluid in English, it’s not his first language, so he’s pretty direct in his writing.
My name is Andreas Ludwig Kalcker and after reading this article i had no choice than to answer….i am researching 2 years from now on ClO2 related health issues on scientific bases, and definitively this Article is equal to: “The earth is Flat syndrome…….“
Enjoy:
Quote:
Many people do not know that MMS is essentially bleach. – GS
Is a wrong Statement and lack of chemical knowledge!
it is used to potabilize drinking water without cancerous trihalomethanes for more than 100 years now
http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-08142001-093734/unrestricted/thesis.pdf
Quote:
In truth, the potential long-term and dangerous side effects of regular MMS use should give anyone the shivers. – GS
What long term side effects? ClO2 disintegrates when oxidizing to oxygen and salt !!!! nothing else.
Quote:
Before we continue, an important lesson on oxidation and free radicals is needed, Oxygen is an essential element that supports life, but in the wrong place or at the wrong time, oxygen can wreak much havoc on our cells, causing cancer, contributing to cardiovascular disease, degenerative diseases, and aging through a process called oxidation.You have seen the effects of oxidation whenever you have observed an apple turn brown and go bad after being exposed to air, or when you see the flame of a candle. – GSWrong again !!!:
The free radicals theory is a postulate from Denham Harman in 1958 !!!The oxidative capacity of oxygen is 1.3V and the mitocondria can handle this very good, but Ozone has an oxidative potential of 2.07V and is too strong and would do harm. Clo2 has only 0.97V and Can not harm our cells due to too low electron potential. Oxidative stress is proven to elongate lifespan! Free radicals = electric potential, the voltage counts! 12V is not the same as 220V
The free-radical theory of aging (FRTA) states that organisms age because cells accumulate free radical damage over time. A free radical is any atom or molecule that has a single unpaired electron in an outer shell. While a few free radicals such as melanin are not chemically reactive, most biologically-relevant free radicals are highly reactive. For most biological structures, free radical damage is closely associated with oxidative damage.
Quote:
Oxidation can even cause debilitating changes to your DNA. – GS
Wrong again:
The scientific proof :Glucose Restriction Extends Caenorhabditis elogans Life Span by Inducing Mitochondrial Respiration and Increasing Oxidative Stress
Tim J. Schulz1, 2, Kim Zarse1, Anja Voigt1, 2, Nadine Urban1, Marc Birringer1 and Michael Ristow1, 2,
,
1 Department of Human Nutrition, Institute of Nutrition, University of Jena, D-07743 Jena, Germany
2 German Institute of Human Nutrition Potsdam-Rehbrücke, D-14558 Nuthetal, Germany· Increasing cellular glucose uptake is a fundamental concept in treatment of type 2 diabetes, whereas nutritive calorie restriction increases life expectancy. We show here that increased glucose availability decreases Caenorhabditis elegans life span, while impaired glucose metabolism extends life expectancy by inducing mitochondrial respiration. The histone deacetylase Sir2.1 is found here to be dispensable for this phenotype, whereas disruption of aak-2, a homolog of AMP-dependent kinase (AMPK), abolishes extension of life span due to impaired glycolysis. Reduced glucose availability promotes formation of reactive oxygen species (ROS), induces catalase activity, and increases oxidative stress resistance and survival rates, altogether providing direct evidence for a hitherto hypothetical concept named mitochondrial hormesis or “mitohormesis.” Accordingly, treatment of nematodes with different antioxidants and vitamins prevents extension of life span. In summary, these data indicate that glucose restriction promotes mitochondrial metabolism, causing increased ROS formation and cumulating in hormetic extension of life span, questioning current treatments of type 2 diabetes as well as the widespread use of antioxidant supplements.
Quote:
By now, you should understand why anti-oxidants are so important,…This is the reason why we are fond of so many antioxidants such as vitamin C, E, carotenoids, resveratrol, taurine, coenzyme Q10, and melatonin, to name but a few. – GSWrong again:
The scientific proof:
Almost 70 clinical trials with more than 230,000 participants have shattered the supposed benefits of antioxidant supplements. A review published in the journal ‘The Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA)’ reveals that not only beneficial, but that beta-carotene and vitamins A and E slightly increase the risk of mortality.“Our findings contradict the claim that antioxidants improve health. Given that between 10% and 20% of the adult population in North America and Europe consume the products evaluated, the public health consequences may be substantial “, say the authors, from the Hospital of Copenhagen (Denmark).
more links ( spanish):
http://www.doctorperu.com/articulo-510-consumir-suplementos-antioxidantes-resulta-nocivo-para-la-salud.php
http://www.madrimasd.org/informacionidi/noticias/noticia.asp?id=29546
Quote:
The toxic effects of chlorine dioxide are associated with those of sodium chlorite – a very strong oxidant that at a dose of is considered to be lethal. – GS10-15 grams of a lightweight gas is really a lot!!!! 70 grams of table salt are deadly too !!!
the scientific DATA:Controlled clinical evaluations of chlorine dioxide, chlorite and chlorate in man.
Lubbers JR, Chauan S, Bianchine JR.
To assess the relative safety of chronically administered chlorine water disinfectants in man, a controlled study was undertaken. The clinical evaluation was conducted in the three phases common to investigational drug studies. Phase I, a rising dose tolerance investigation, examined the acute effects of progressively increasing single doses of chlorine disinfectants to normal healthy adult male volunteers. Phase II considered the impact on normal subjects of daily ingestion of the disinfectants at a concentration of 5 mg/l. for twelve consecutive weeks. Persons with a low level of glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase may be expected to be especially susceptible to oxidative stress; therefore, in Phase III, chlorite at a concentration of 5 mg/l. was administered daily for twelve consecutive weeks to a small group of potentially at-risk glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase-deficient subjects. Physiological impact was assessed by evaluation of a battery of qualitative and quantitative tests. The three phases of this controlled double-blind clinical evaluation of chlorine dioxide and its potential metabolites in human male volunteer subjects were completed uneventfully. There were no obvious undesirable clinical sequellae noted by any of the participating subjects or by the observing medical team. In several cases, statistically significant trends in certain biochemical or physiological parameters were associated with treatment; however, none of these trends was judged to have physiological consequence. One cannot rule out the possibility that, over a longer treatment period, these trends might indeed achieve proportions of clinical importance. However, by the absence of detrimental physiological responses within the limits of the study, the relative safety of oral ingestion of chlorine dioxide and its metabolites, chlorite and chlorate, was demonstrated.
Quote:
The popularity of MMS and its fervent, almost religious marketing involved the claim of curing malaria in tens if not hundreds of thousands of people. Sounds very noble indeed, but this is only natural as MMS’ sodium chlorite is well known to cause hemolysis in red blood cells – meaning that red blood cells are ruptured and destroyed. It is actually by killing red blood cells that the malarial parasite is killed since it invades red blood cells. – GS
Wrong as usual,
the scientific Data:Chlorine dioxide and hemodialysis.
Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology, Dartmouth Medical School, Hanover, New Hampshire 03756.
Abstract
In the United States chlorination of potable water supplies has been the standard method of disinfection for about 75 years. In recent times concern has been raised about the propensity of chlorination to introduce potentially carcinogenic trihalomethanes (THM) such as chloroform into finished water.. The levels of THM introduced depend on many factors including the quality of the raw water. Numerous community water treatment facilities are experiencing difficulty in meeting current U.S. Environmental Protection Agency standards, and it is likely that the permissible levels may be lowered in the future. An alternative to chlorination which does not generate THM during disinfection is chlorine dioxide, but there are concerns about the acute and chronic toxicity of ClO2 and its disinfection by-products, chlorite and chlorate. Deleterious effects of moderately high levels of these oxychlorines have been demonstrated experimentally on red blood cells, thyroid function, and development in laboratory animals. Adverse effects in controlled prospective studies in humans and in actual use situations in community water supplies have as yet failed to reveal clear evidence of adverse health effects. Among groups who may be at special risk from this suggested alternative are patients who must undergo chronic extracorporeal hemodialysis. The special needs, precautions, and experience to date in regard to finished water are reviewed. Again, very limited human experience has failed to reveal adverse health effects. Further study, caution, and extreme vigilance are indicated, but dialysis patients in carefully controlled facilities may be at no greater risk than the general population.
Quote:
FDA advises consumers to stop using MMS immediately and throw it away. – GSMicrocyn Technology has a FDA aproved CLO2 product
http://www..oculusis.com/us/technology/
Basically the same product as MMS …….
Quote:
In short, MMS should NEVER be a health treatment, alternative or otherwise! – GSTHIS IS TRUE…..
SINCE YOU CAN NOT PATENT A MINERAL SALT ( NACLO2) OR CITRIC ACID
YOU Can MAKE NO MONEY AS A BIG-PHARMA-PRODUCT AND WORSE OF ALL….
IT CAN CAUSE ” SPONTANEOUS REMISSIONS” OF MANY EVEN LIFE-THREATENING DISEASES!
( RESEARCH bY Andreas Ludwig Kalcker an affected person with spontaneous remissions on all his diseases)
Please give this article to any MMS consumer. They have the right to know what is going on within their bodies – and DNA – when they take this Trojan Horse!
—–
While Andreas and I were talking, we were oblivious to the event that was unfolding in Japan… although it became obvious as the day unfolded.
As I heard reporters mention how safe drinking water can quickly become a challenge, I decided to shoot this short video.
—–
My conversation with John Barbour went well. We even talked about MMS, in the second half of the show.
You can listen by going to www.realpeopleradio.com and selecting the 03/09/11 podcast. I also had my video camera going, and have combined the audio from the podcast, so that it can somewhat experience it from my perspective.
I will provide a link here of the 45 minute piece as soon as it is available online.
More to come…
I love your blog.. very nice colors & theme. Did you design this website yourself or did you hire someone to do it for you? Plz reply as I’m looking to design my own blog and would like to find out where u got this from. many thanksRoofing of Fort Worth, 8100 Wallace Road, Fort Worth, TX 76135 – (817) 330-8100
The cases of hiv infection is actually getting higher and higher instead of getting lower. too many careless people out there. ;
See all of the newest piece of writing at our new web blog
http://www.healthmedicinelab.com/ovarian-cyst-pain/
I have just started a low dose MMs for ME/CFS/Fybromyalgia. It makes me feel very nauseous, and I am having difficulty in increasing the dose from 2 drops X 4 per day. However I would say that my head feels clearer, and I have lost my craving for sugar. I will post how it goes. Diana.
Hi Adam1
May I ask you something? I had a bad fall about 5 weeks ago and I know MMS will not do the trick this time. I pulled a ligament in my upper arm, were it joins the shoulder. It is the middle one and seems to take very long to heal.
But somebody suggested just now to me to try DMSO. Can you tell me if this could be true?
Thanks 🙂
Ok MMS fraud, I start anew on the top. As you know I don’t know anything about chemistry, so I will not even look into any of those links you posted, since this is like Chinese to me. But I’m sure somebody else will understand what is standing there.
There are many links on this blog that were posted there to prove that MMS works, but I did not read them either since they are just as Chinse to me than yours.
I have over the last year been mentioning MMS to several people who had an idea of chemistry, but only one had a degree. He read it and after reading it said that it was possible that Jim was right.
I told a friend in SA about MMS and she told a friend who’s partner was into Chemistry. He got the diploma from Jim now. Surely if he knew about chemistry before and thought it was dangerous, he would not have started making MMS himself.
I agree with you in so far that some people may be mistaken but not so many. Sorry, but I just speak from my experience and of those people I know who use it. Since it did not give US any problems and I know I’m telling the truth, I give most people the benefit of a doubt that they to tell the truth, especially if they report similar reactions than we have.
Other than that I could be mistaken, you could be mistaken and only time will tell who is mistaken. Until than I take my MMS, and you do do as you please.
As for me having no open mind? The same could be said about you and the flat-earth society. Even do there were so many thinking the earth is flat, they were proven wrong. Which goes to prove that just because the masses think something is right or wrong, it does not have to be the truth. But that I call human error… 🙂
Sorry I wrote a post but when I came back to check it wasn’t here, I thought I must have not pressed “post” properly or something so I wrote another one, but then I noticed it said “awaiting moderation” which I never noticed before, so now both posts appeared.
As for how many people can be wrong, you say “I agree with you in so far that some people may be mistaken but not so many. ” but you are actually accusing me and the entire medical and science community of being mistaken, so why can WE be wrong, but not you and a handful of your friends and acquaintances? I think it’s obvious you believe this only because you have “personal experience”, but personal experience can actually be quite unreliable. People, even very smart people can easily be tricked or fooled by certain things, we are very poor at understanding statistics and we are very poor at understanding the difference between correlation and causation. There are countless examples where “personal experience” can be completely wrong, this is exactly where belief in things like witchcraft came from and where almost all the superstitions of the world come from, it’s from people who base their beliefs on personal experience, rather then objective tests. This doesn’t make people stupid or gullible or liars, it’s purely because we have to interpret what we experience and our interpretations are not always perfect.
In fact you know this because you point out the flat earth society. That’s a good example, any normal, even smart person could be convinced the earth is flat if they didn’t have scientific proof, they can SEE the earth is flat, it is also perfectly obvious that the sun goes around the earth. If you try to convince someone the earth goes around the sun without scientific proof they would laugh at you, they could say just look with your own eyes, it’s obvious the sun goes around the earth! What more proof do you want? So why don’t we believe that anymore? Because we did objective, verifiable TESTS, that’s the main if not the only reason. And that’s what will take to convince me that MMS is really a miracle cure like Jim Humble claims, not anecdotes, not testimony, not even personal experience.
Do you know that many years ago before we knew better some people actually believed that smoking was GOOD for you? Even many doctors smoked in their practices. Without a doubt some people believed this because of their personal experience. They felt better after smoking, they didn’t personally know anyone who was harmed by smoking, or even if they did they didn’t think it was the smoking that harmed them. Were they “stupid”? Were they gullible? No of course not, for many years cigarette companies argued that it wasn’t smoking that caused lung cancer and no one could “prove” otherwise. It seems ridiculous now but that’s how it was. It wasn’t just regular people who got together and worked out the truth, it was only possible because of scientific tests. It seems SO obvious now but without those tests people still wouldn’t know that smoking is bad for you. That is why tests are absolutely necessary, because people can NOT work this out for them selves using anecdotes and personal experience. There are MANY people, thousands, who smoke their whole lives but still live to an old age and never get sick from smoking. If we never did those tests, there would still be people who believe that smoking is not bad for you. There could be forums full of testimonials and anecdotes from thousands of people who smoke 30 years and never have any problems swearing that smoking is safe, would you believe them? Jim Humble has had 10 years, actually I read now he says 14 years, to show just a few tests but I’ve never seen any. After searching and asking for tests for over a year, all I EVER hear is excuses.
Anyway, I don’t think I can present my case any clearer then that. Jim Humble doesn’t have any “special” insight into how safe MMS is, he hasn’t done tests and I’ve never seen a confirmed verified case of any serious disease cured by MMS. He has demonstrated over and over that he doesn’t know all the facts, some people talk like Jim is some sort of “saint” and his knowledge must have come from God but the fact is he’s only human and could be mistaken. Have you read this page where he admitted that MMS doesn’t cure HIV most of the time?
http://jimhumble.biz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=38&Itemid=66
So if he was wrong about that, maybe he’s also wrong about how safe it is? He couldn’t possibly know that it is as safe as he claims. I know that I can’t change your mind, that’s pretty obvious, just understand that by drinking MMS you ARE taking a risk and your health and ultimately your life could be at stake.
Now you really sound like a fish out water. About 5 million people around the World using MMS with miraculous results. Even aspirin is more dangerous than MMS, over 6000 people died from over dose of aspirin in 2009. So where is your evidence, That MMS is harmful ? You are just fear mongering here and trying to spread misinformation. And you really believe, that the American Government, or the Russian and Chinese Military, and the Romanians would give even 2 cents for your peer review stuff, and your scientific method?
I guess you can not even see, that you are shooting after the duck.
Thanks for the link. And this one I read completely. So Jim says that MMS does not kill ALL viruses, and some people don’t get completely healed. So were is your problem?
I have taken many drugs from doctors that did not heal me. My asthma pump just helped me to stop the cough for a while, but the doctors gave me nothing to heal me. So you right, you are not going to convince me.
Reading Jim article also made me aware why there is little prove on the internet re healing except experiences.
Jim is in underdeveloped countries using HIS money to help underprivileged people as much as he can.
Why would people who can’t afford the medicine or doctor, waste money on tests?
Why would Jim waste his money when he needs it to heal the sick?
It is a matter of getting the priorities right, and healing the sick is more important to him than bringing the prove.
It was more important to me to be healthy than to have a doctors certificate to prove it.
Why? Simply because I’m not swimming in money. 50 euros for 10 minuets to see the doctor who DID NOT heal me just to get the written prove that I’m now healthy? I don’t think so!
Do you really believe the doctor will write such note, admitting that he did not cure me? Do you think I tell him I use MMS? If MMS would give me problems, than I would, but not when I’m healthy. If I had aids, which would have been established via a test in the first place, and I would have taken MMS AFTER TRYING doctors advise and it did not help me, and I would have become healthy than, that would be a different story since I would want to be sure that there is no aids left in my body. That would be 50 Euros worth for ME. I may THAN told the doctor that I toke MMS, but not before I was well for faer of him being also brainwashed into believing that medicine has to come from HIM and must be approved! 😉
Lastly, I’m sure there is prove out there and I have come across a few documents being posted already, but I don’t understand what is written there, so I don’t bother passing this on. I leave this to those who know what is written there.
Also, my experience has shown me that people who have made up their mind that MMS does not work or is dangerous DO NOT look for prove to contradict them. They NEVER reply to those documents posted to support Jim’s claim ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. They just ignore them and go on with copy and pasting opinions of people with their own opinions. Now this makes me wonder….
Obviously those with aids would have tests done to begin with and Jim tells them to have tests done after 3 weeks to find out the results (why would he do that if he knew MMS does not work), but how many really do that when they feel better and don’t have the money or the time to see a doctor?
How many hours do many of them need to travel to see a doctor?
I lived for almost 30 years in South Africa and I have seen how they sat for hours in the hospitals waiting to be seen to. I can assure you they won’t waste their time or money to travel in busses or taxis or walk to the doctor just to have the prove that their improved health is not just placebo effect, even if Jim told them to have the test done. Those people don’t see doctors unless they need them! 🙂
This is just going around in circles, you’ve actually not addressed ANY of what I’ve been trying to explain, so this is really pointless.
“So Jim says that MMS does not kill ALL viruses”
WRONG! Time and time again he says it cures 100% of illness 100% of the time. Just read his work, it is VERY hard to find anywhere that Jim says MMS doesn’t cure something. He has WHOLE websites dedicated to hundreds of “illnesses” he says it cures, when asked about specific illnesses he has NEVER said it doesn’t cure something. He says he cured 100,000 people of malaria 100%, he says he cured many AIDS patients 100%, he NEVER has said he failed to cure someone, except in this article promoting MMS2. But you don’t EVEN see this is a contradiction, you ignore it.
“Why would Jim waste his money when he needs it to heal the sick?”
Complete rubbish! This is a very common “excuse” used by scammers, the old “I’m too busy healing people”,. That is NOT a valid excuse, if you believe this you are again just ignoring the facts. How much time has he used to set up websites? How much time has he used to post on wikipedia? He has people that help him with this, so why doesn’t someone help him with the tests? He has literally DOZENS of websites, is that more important then collecting some tests? Why hasn’t a voulenteer done some tests? I can quote Jim Humble saying he has spent $100,000 setting up websites, if he spent that much on websites, why can’t he spend a bit on getting some tests? People could even SEND him their test, or they could post their own tests. That he’s “too busy” is a ridiculous nonsense excuse. You KNOW you can’t explain this, you just make excuse after excuse.
“people who have made up their mind that MMS does not work or is dangerous DO NOT look for prove to contradict them. ”
Wrong again, I have told you countless times I am looking for the proof. It is YOU who won’t look , you just ignore, makes excuses or doesn’t understand the proof. I’ve told you my mind is NOT made up, I just want to see some test results, but you think this is somehow unreasonable (but you can’t explain it) even though Adam says people HAVE test results already!
“How many hours do many of them need to travel to see a doctor?”
More excuses, I never said ANYTHING about Africa, I ALREADY said I understand MOST people wouldn’t get tests, BUT SOME WOULD! And you KNOW this. Like the people with cancer and AIDS, people like ME and YOU, do you think we are so exceptional? No one else out of the 5 million cured got a test result? You admitted if MMS cured you, you would show test results, why bring up Africa AGAIN! You spend the rest of the whole post making your POINTLESS point about doctors in Africa. Just more excuses.
“So you right, you are not going to convince me.”
Chinese Proverbs A closed mind is like a closed book; just a block of wood.
That’s great, drink your bleach. Prost! Good bye.
lol
Maybe next time you send a link you actually first read what you send us!
Copy of some of the contents of your link supplied:
What we found out recently is that MMS (now called MMS1) when given to HIV people generally cures all of their health problems associated with the HIV, but it does not cure the HIV in some cases. It is more valuable than the HIV drugs for treating HIV, but it doesn’t kill the HIV virus always, just sometimes.
On other places he says it kills MOST…bla bla bla…This English is so plain that even I can understand it!
Roger 🙂
Hi Simunye
I think trax is right, he is a bot. He can only repeat himself over , and over, and over and over again. Only a bot would be closed minded like that.
He is probably a paid dis-info agent. They are paid to scour the internet and cause people to doubt themselves.
We all know it works, no need to see a Dr to to get his approval…they don’t care anyways.
There is a critical point this post completely fails to address: For a study to even be rejected in the first place, you need to actually PRESENT a study to begin with. There has been NO such study presented by any supporters of MMS. So why are you claiming to “know” what the “elite peers” will say when NOTHING has even been presented to them? This is exactly the same reason why Jim’s claims about MMS aren’t in wikipedia. It’s not “WHO” is making the claims, it’s HOW the claims are made. It’s not as you claim that anecdotes about MMS are not accepted as evidence, it’s because anecdotes are not accepted as evidence of ANY claim. All scientific claims are held to the same standard. There is absolutely no reason why doctors or scientists who support MMS couldn’t compile real clinical trials or case reports. I would LOVE to see these results, that’s ALL I and the scientific community have ever asked for from the start. If MMS REALLY was so effective at curing people as is claimed, it would be completely TRIVIAL to compile a REAL study; pre-trials and case reports doesn’t cost a lot of money or effort. Jim has had ten years to compile real case reports or clinical trial results, but this has never happened, this is why I am sceptical of the claims. MMS supporters now even claim that some doctors are using MMS, so why haven’t they compiled REAL case reports? We’ve seen Hesselink’s hypothetical “research”, why hasn’t he taken it to the next level and shown some actual verifiable test results? This is my main problem with the claims about MMS, the ONLY evidence that has so far been presented is people’s own testimonies. All you actually need to do is set up protocols for a trial which includes some randomization and placebo control with real test results of before and after, and right there you have a study you could present to the public and submit for peer review. This process doesn’t cost millions of dollars as Jim claims, Phase 1 trials can even be done on volunteers of which there are obviously plenty, so why are there no real trial results?
I’m not going to get into detail regarding the exchange between Adam and Andreas, it would take too long, but I will address one important point which seems to be repeated a lot. MMS is very obviously NOT the same thing as what is used in water purification. Municipal water is NOT acidified immediately before ingestion and all the substances used to purify water are in FAR lower concentrations then what is ingested when taking MMS. All you need to do is SMELL MMS and this distinction is obvious! If my tap water smelled like MMS, I would NOT drink it. Exactly the same goes for the substances used to treat meat and food, if any food you bought smelled like MMS you would NOT eat it. The fact that this claim is constantly repeated and that studies of municipal water purification and food treatment is used to “prove” the safety of MMS is disingenuous at best and deceitful at worst.
you again?its not going to work.even though you are getting paid by the goverment,or pharma,we are not going to listen to any part of your argument,especially if you are a bot.
so just go away,mms works,saves lives.you are a big liar,and a waste of time.
I’m a bot? lol, wow, now I really HAVE heard everything.. See the strange excuses you have to make up? How much you have to twist and turn to support your strange belief? You can’t comprehend that I’m just a regular concerned person who doesn’t want people to drink something that is harmful to them. If you accepted that you’d actually have to question your belief, but it’s a lot easier to think I’m paid off or a “bot” and just dismiss what I have to say. The fact is, I’ve never received a single cent from a pharma company, I don’t even know anyone in that industry. A close relative of mine was sold MMS by a homeopath and they took it and it made them sick. I did a lot of research completely on my own about it and discovered that it can be harmful so I tried to talk my relative out of taking it, but they were the same as you, they wouldn’t believe me, they didn’t have any real disease to cure, but they believed it was “good” for them because that’s what the homeopath said. Until it made them sick several times and they finally realized that it wasn’t a detox reaction like Jim claims, but that MMS was actually making them sick..
First of all my dear, you must not be surprised if people call you a liar, because that is what you call all of us MMS users. Don’t throw stones if you sit in a glasshouse.
I did not call you a liar, I simply say that you don’t know what you are talking about. It is possible you relative got sick, but do we know if they overdosed? Or if they are simply allergic against MMS or have taken other medication at the same time? No! We are expected to take YOUR word for it!
You say that you did a lot of research completely on your own about it and discovered that it can be harmful. May I ask what type of research this was. Did you do a labor test, the only one you seem to believe in, or did you just go and read all the opinions from other anti MMS fanatics and call that the prove you found? So were is your prove of your reasearch dear? We like to see that too!
The fact that you relatives toke MMS for about a year even they got sick from it, they still did not want to listen to your warning. That tells me, that either they did not tell you the truth or everything else they did or toke that could be the reason why they did get sick, and they did not trust your judgement either. Now you expect US to trust YOUR judgement when your relative did not?
Don’t you see that this makes no sense, especially when we are taking MMS already over a year without problems and we are still alive to prove it? Get real, you sound like a broken grammophon and like Adam2. 😉
First of all my dear, I know you didn’t call me a liar, but you had no problem with “trax” doing it. I NEVER called any MMS user here or anywhere else a liar. Find one time where I called an MMS USER a liar and if you can’t admit that you are wrong and apologize to me.
Then realize the reason you are just dismissing me is because you don’t have an open mind.
You can’t even consider for a moment that if real people had real test results like there should be if MMS really worked, like Adam claims in in his other post that there already IS, then we should be able to see lost of them.
Tell me Simunye, if you had HIV or Cancer and MMS cured you, would you post your test results online so everyone could see them?
Just answer that one question, I know I would!
And then tell me why you can’t find hundreds or thousands of test results on the internet? I can’t find even one.
Stop making excuses..
You are right, if I was healed of an terminal decease and MMS healed me, I would publish the results. But what I do and what others do is 2 deferent stories.
I know you did not call anybody a liar directly, but by the very notion of not believing us, you make us feel like we are liars.
I’m not scared of telling the truth and supplying prove if I have it.
I was healed of my asthma and I cannot bring you the prove, because I simply did not go back to the doctor regarding this problem. He might have noticed that I don’t need any asthma pumps anymore but thinks he done something to heal my condition. I don’t know, and I have no intentions to pay him a 50 euro fee just to get a certificate that I had asthma and now I don’t, just to please you!
What other people do online and how they express them-self is not my problem, even if I might have used other means of expressing myself. We are not all alike and some people get quicker upset than others. Some people take things more personal then others and I do not know why they react the way they do. I’m not their mother or babysitter, so if you have a problem with their way of talking to you, take it up with the person involved. But I still agree that you don’t know what you are talking about and you did not answer my question for the prove of your research.
So were is your prove dear, we are waiting for it! 😉
I try to lighten up the conversation by looking at the bright side of people who are anti MMS. I have noticed that if there is nobody anti what we say, very often the conversation becomes stagnant. So from that point of you I find it amusing to answer you , as long as you don’t become abusive to me. 🙂
You are fundamentally mistaken if you think I’m even “implying” MMS users are liars or stupid or deluded.
Say 1000 people go to see a magician who levitates a woman so convincingly that no one can think of the trick how he did it, the Magician says it was “real” magic, no tricks involved. Are those people lying or stupid or deluded if they say they saw a woman levitate? Obviously not. How about if they believe him that he didn’t use any tricks? They saw with their own eyes that the magician levitated someone, what other proof do they need? Could someone convince them it was a trick even though they can’t “really” prove it? What if I didn’t believe it was real, I asked the magician to show me some proof it wasn’t a trick, but he replied that I need to prove it WAS a trick and that 1000 people saw it with their own eyes! Then he accused me of calling them liars.. I said that if he was REALLY making people levitate, it should be easy to prove it, so he finally admitted he DID have proof but I have to fly to the dominical republic to see it. He says he’s made THOUSANDS of people levitate in Africa, but that proof wasn’t available to examine either. Then some other people write a blog that some other people have proof, but we can’t see that either. In fact, I spend a whole year asking people and searching for proof but all I ever get are excuses why the proof can’t be shown to me. There’s a 1000 people who SWEAR this magician made a woman levitate, but after a whole year I still haven’t seen a single piece of verifiable proof.
Are those 1000 people liars or stupid? The answer is NO, but tell me in what way my story is different to Jim’s claims about MMS?
I never said I expect you to spend 50 Euros to get a certificate about your asthma, I understand that’s not reasonable and I understand that a lot, maybe MOST of MMS users would also be in this position. But you can’t tell me why there aren’t lots of people cured of terminal illness with real lab results clearing them of their illness, even thought you admit it seems like there should be lots.
This is my main problem, you are not trying to verify your perception of reality. Now if you consider for a moment that you “could” be mistaken, then you have to admit that maybe there are hundreds if not thousands of people that could ALSO be mistaken. It doesn’t mean they are lying or stupid. Even the smartest people are sometimes mistaken. So how can you tell? Ask yourself how would reality look like if MMS was really a miracle cure? After ten years, we should see some test results, that’s what reality WOULD and SHOULD look like if MMS REALLY cured people of terminal illness. You even ADMIT this is the case.
Then ask yourself what would reality look like if MMS DIDN’T really cure terminal illnesses? Well, there could be lots of people on the internet that might think it works but they could be mistaken. All they could do is offer personal unverifiable testimonials, but no actual test results could be provided to support the claims. Does that remind you of anything?
I don’t think you are really interested in seeing the proof that sodium chlorite and chlorine dioxide is not good for you, because it is everywhere, you just have to look or ask. You already dismiss wikipedia as biased without any evidence that it is actually biased. You dismiss all the clinical studies because you think they are “against MMS” even though there is no proof they are against MMS. A lot of those studies existed long before Jim Humble “discovered” MMS, so how could they be against it? You can still find lots of scientists and doctors who have NEVER heard of MMS so ask any of them if it sounds like a good idea to drink sodium chlorite or chlorine dioxide. Just google sodium chloride or chlorine dioxide and find websites that have nothing to do with MMS at all and see what they say? Are they ALL now “against” mms? That’s just ridiculous, it’s the same data that’s been around long before Jim thought of MMS. No one changed their opinion about it when Jim Humble started promoting MMS.
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/chlorinedioxide/recognition.html
http://www.daff.gov.au/animal-plant-health/aquatic/aquavetplan/operational_procedures_manual_-_decontamination/contents/recommendations_for_specific_disinfecting_agents/stabilised_chlorine_dioxide_solutions#7.3.3
http://www.puremash.com/pdfs/MaterialDataSheetCIO2.pdf
http://www.metconeng.com/mydocs/media/pdf/3-5_STS_Chlorine_Dioxide_Safety081004_165400.pdf
http://www.ehow.com/list_6498342_chlorine-dioxide-dangers.html
http://magnumsolvent.com/productdata/MSDS/chlorine-dioxide.pdf
I have no doubt you’ll just dismiss all of that too, you’ll say it’s not “really” about MMS or whatever, but the truth is you aren’t a scientist and if you dismiss it, YOU are the one that is demonstrating you don’t know what you are talking about. Like I said, all you have to do is go find some scientists that have never heard of MMS and ask them if it sounds like a good idea, I bet you won’t because by saying you don’t care if there are no test results (even thought Adam claims they exist) you have demonstrated you are not looking for external verification of your belief, your mind is 100% made up, you can’t be wrong, so you ignore any information to the contrary, that’s the definition of not being open minded.
I never claimed my mind is 100% made up; I’m probably 95% sure but I’m still open to the idea that MMS might really work, I have stated clearly what it would take to change my mind: I just want to see some of the test results, which MMS promoters say already exist, I don’t think this is an unreasonable request and you actually agreed with me that this was not unreasonable.
RE: the liar claims. You directly accused me of calling MMS users liars, i never did this. The most I have EVER said is that MMS users could be mistaken, that is NOT the same thing as being a liar or being deluded. If you can NOT accept you might be mistaken, then you do not have an open mind
The MOST important thing is that you do not have to be stupid or deluded to be mistaken. Even very smart people are mistaken sometimes, that is the main reason why we need objective tests. If one person can be mistaken, so can a thousand. Without tests, how do we know we aren’t mistaken? I have admitted I am NOT 100% certain that MMS doesn’t cure diseases, I still have an open mind, that’s why I want to see tests, if during the last ten years there were hundreds of people cured of cancer or HIV that could show some test results, even on youtube or here or any website, I would be much more likely to believe MMS was really a cure. But so far all I have is excuses and everything I have read from objective, 3rd party sources, most of which never heard of Jim Humble or MMS, say that sodium chlorite and chlorine dioxide are not safe to drink if you can smell the chlorine.
I also never said you need to go to the doctor and spend money to tell you something you already know. See this is just another excuse you are making. I KNOW this is unreasonable and I know MOST MMS users would be in the same situation, so most would NOT have tests, that’s fine. But I also know that at least SOME should. If hundreds of thousands have been cured, then even 0.1% having tests would be hundreds of people. Some would even NEED tests to show them they no longer have cancer, or HIV, or Malaria, without those tests they wouldn’t know they are actually cured. So where are these tests? The fact that you agree with me on this point, but still just dismiss it as if it is “nothing” reveals that you are not willing to look at the truth, because you just ignore it when it contradicts your belief.
You ask to see my proof but I also don’t believe you actually want to see the proof because it is easily available. But again you just make excuses to dismiss it like wikipedia. You just think it’s all a big conspiracy even thought I bet the people who made the wikipedia page about chlorine dioxide never even heard of MMS. If you don’t trust wikipedia, just google sodium chlorite or chlorine dioxide safety and every result you get will tell you it is not safe to drink, unless it is a MMS promoter. Here are a few:
http://www.oxy.com/Our_Businesses/chemicals/Documents/sodium_chlorite/technicalData/Chlorine%20Dioxide%20Health%20and%20Safety.pdf
pungent, sharp odor similar to that of chlorine and ozone It has an odor threshold concentration of 0.1-0.3ppm
safety limit ACGIH – TLV 0.1 ppm OSHA – PEL 0.1 ppm
http://www.puremash.com/pdfs/MaterialDataSheetCIO2.pdf
ACGIH – Threshold limit value – 0.1ppm time weighted
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/chlorinedioxide/recognition.html
The current Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) permissible exposure limit (PEL) for chlorine dioxide is 0.1 ppm
http://www.ehow.com/list_6498342_chlorine-dioxide-dangers.html
Negative health effects due to chlorine dioxide can persist for years.
http://ecb.jrc.ec.europa.eu/iuclid-datasheet/10049044.pdf
Short term exposire limit value 0.9 ppm
oxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/r?dbs+iris:@term+@rn+10049-04-4
http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/factsheets/chemicals/chlorinedioxidefactsheet.htm
Chlorine dioxide is an antimicrobial pesticide recognized for its disinfectant properties since the early 1900s. Chlorine dioxide kills microorganisms by disrupting transport of nutrients across the cell wall.
(note how this has NOTHING to do with Jim Humble’s claim of “blowing a hole in their skin” )
I think a typical 4 drop dose of MMS is about 10-40 ppm, which jim humble says you should take several times a day and that it’s “perfectly safe”.
You say, that you did research, and you know people who got sick from MMS. But where is your lab results, and your Empirical Evidence. And how you know, that they were not sick from a prescription drug, or even from over the counter drug or even from something else, or even drugs they may used many years before? If you took some drugs even 10 years ago, that drug could be in your system, and if MMS start to clean it out, maybe it could make you sick. So where is your empirical evidence? We suppose to believe you, because you say so? You dont have clue what your talking about, you never used MMS.
Wow, congratulations, if there was a prize for answering your own questions you would have just won! You are absolutely correct: I can’t be sure the MMS made them sick, but that’s not a decision I had to make, it was my relative that needed to get sick before they stopped taking MMS. That’s why I trust verifiable empirical evidence, not random anonymous people on the internet, no matter how genuine or honest they seem. Asking me to drink it is just ridiculous, I’m not going to drink something that’s harmful to me, that’s like me asking you to smoke to find out if it’s bad for you. Every source of information about sodium chlorite or chlorine dioxide says it’s NOT safe to drink anywhere NEAR the concentrations MMS is consumed in, let alone say that it can cure anything. The ONLY people who say it is safe are people promoting MMS. So where are those tests we talked about?
quote: I KNOW that if I was cured of AIDS or cancer and had test results to prove it, i would post it EVERYWHERE, i would shout from the rooftops. No one couldt stop me unless they killed me and I would be willing to pay that price, if my life was saved by MMS.
Bravo
So would I, but that does not mean we are better, just that we have more guts time or whatever it is that makes us differant. I’m sure most people here would do the same, but unfortunatly I can only help you with my asthma. I can rather do without cancer, even if that means I have no prove for you. Not all people are the same and I’m sure they all have a reason way they don’t have the result or way they don’t publish it. So who are we to tell others what they must or must not do. But maybe the fact that some people write to me private, because they don’t like to partake in this conversation with anti MMS fanatics.
And don’t give me that crap that you have an open mind please!
As long as you called yourself MMSdebunked, maybe. But MMSfraud leaves no doubt why you are really here. 🙂
“just that we have more guts time or whatever it is that makes us differant”
Bullshit and you know it. We are no different. You can not give ANY good reason why there are no tests. You KNOW it doesn’t make sense that there are NO test results, you just close your eyes and “believe” some mysterious reason. Because I think you KNOW the reason we can’t find any test results. It’s the same reason why we can’t find santa claus.
“And don’t give me that crap that you have an open mind please!”
I’m still obviously more open minded then you. I started very open and if I saw a few test results I would be even more open. But the more excuses I get instead of actual evidence which you admit SHOULD exist, the more I’m convinced MMS is NOT a miracle cure like Jim claims.
Off course we are all different. Thanks God we are! Would be boring if we were all alike. I don’t mean in the eyes of God or our value as a person, but about our , behavior and reactions.
Some people have no problems sharing their private experience with EVERYBODY. Others only share it with selected people because of bullies and people LIKE YOU.
Than there are those that have nothing to share, but they get involved anywhere, be it because they really believe what they say, they are bored, they like stirring SHerbIT, or they are simply a pain in the ‘you know were’, or they have an attitude problem: and they like it! !
Take your pick, and end of story from my site, because you may like repeating yourself, but I have repeated myself enough to you.
I take my MMS and you do what ever you please.
Have a nice day and God bless! 🙂
A nice replay,but why don’t you put some evidence? You do not have, right?
Smoking was good thought for health….and sex is bad for you health was declared by former popes…
Let everyone decide for himself and please please bing scientific facts and not opinions (our world is too full of it and we are waisting time, we could spend to help others).
think positive, and help ….do not destroy but create.
Correct, always the same story Andreas. They keep asking US for prove but all prove they bring is COPY AND PASTE the opinions of like-minded. When somebody brings some prove here it is ignored anywhere. Never mind I think we are all old enough to decide for ourself what is good for us. Love and love to all of you… 🙂
You’re a waste of time. how about the links 2 posts above? I suppose you think that’s just someone’s “opinion”? Some of those links are from before 2000, one is from europe, one is from a manufacturer, one is from america, one is from environmental agency, I bet they never even heard of Jim or MMS.
When you can show me a test result from someone who was cured by MMS, then i’ll be interested. Until then, all you offer is excuses.
Do you think I am unreasonable for wanting to see ONE test result? ADAM himself says such tests exist, so why is it so hard to find ONE.
If you think it is perfectly reasonable that after 14 years and allegedly “millions” cured, we can’t find ONE SINGLE test result of someone cured of cancer or AIDS or another serious illness, then good luck to you, sorry, but you obviously do not use the critical thinking part of your brain.
I KNOW that if I was cured of AIDS or cancer and had test results to prove it, i would post it EVERYWHERE, i would shout from the rooftops. No one couldt stop me unless they killed me and I would be willing to pay that price, if my life was saved by MMS.
No one has been able to offer even half an explanation why we can find hundreds of “testimonials” but NOT ONE test result.
mmsfraud.
Nobody is trying to convince you of anything. You can believe what ever you like, nobody cares what you believe.
And if you think you are not drinking bleach every day, you are wrong.
If the city would not put bleach in the drinking water to purify it, you would be just drinking dirty water, just filtered city sewage.
You dont have to believe In MMS, and you dont have to use it, MMS is What MMS is, and you can take it or leave it.
Jim Humble actually convinced you that MMS is the same as tap water?
Do a little experiment for me: put a glass of water next to a glass of MMS, THEN come back and try to convince me they’re the same thing! hahaha…
Lol, that’s your funniest post yet!
LoL, never mind the ears, we need to test MMS on the brain…lol
Adam, is that an Alphabiotics t-shirt I see you wearing there? 😉
Great post, this info needs to spread fast.
Some more anectotial evedence?
I got a mail from my friend in Sout Africa just now, whom I introduced to MMS. Here ist the part that shoud interest you my friends…
“A friend of mine – I have introduced the MMS – her boyfriend made now a diploma with Jim Humble and was in direct contact with him– he has now a certificate and is allowed to do the mix by himself – I got the tabletts and the mixture – I use the mixture for my teeth – I am telling it works wonders. You can see how the universe works from you to me to them. (perfect)”
Halleluja! South Africa needed somebody, because the addres I found online for SA, does not even exist. I checked them out last January when I was in SA!
Adam: The devastation in the Gulf States post Oil Spill continues with many people (dare I say thousands ?) are having various degrees of health problems, tumors, cancers etc. There are only allopathic MD’s doling out the band-aids treatments for the symptoms but no one is there helping to clear these toxins from their bodies. The air, water, and soil is contaminated and getting healthy food locally is becoming more difficult. I talked to a woman trying to get a clinic going there and they have had nothing but misinformation about MMS. I can see MMS and other health support needed and so vital to these people. Please contact me to discuss possibilties of getting help to these people. I would like to work with others to get this set up as I can’t do it myself.
That is hilarious Adam! All you needed to do was put my picture at the top, seeing that I’m debating just that right now with another ‘anti MMS expert’ right here…lol
I feel good about what Andreas says the first time I watched his videos. Thanks Andreas for your info.
I hope those AAMF are listening properly for a change. Normally they only listen up when they find something anti MMS written somewhere.
As long as it is anti MMS, it does not even matter if the person claiming he/she knows it all, is REPUTABLE (the flying monkeys come to my mind). But wait a minuet,some of them made it into the news, so that makes them reputable, right? lol
😉 🙂
Hi Simunye.
I think, sometime people forget, that MMS helps with health problems only if it is from viruses, toxins, and pathogens,
If the health problem is from some kind of deficiency or something else, MMS may not help all conditions.
If someone missing an ear, no matter how much MMS he take he will be still missing an ear.